DEBATE: STOP BLAMING THE WEST!
This debate was about the MDC Statement applauding Pres Zuma’s Statement refer:
From : "G. Gadzirayi Nyambuya"(firstname.lastname@example.org)
This is all a pile of rubbish, how can a racist government be better? On no yard stick does your statement register an significant figure.
PM Tsvangirai is the worst thing to happen to Africa, cry Africa, why do you bring forth such! I respect your opinion brother, but I will need only the most high God to convience me Tsavangirai is anything good!
How do you cooperate with the oppressors of the world so as to keep inplace their oppressive system. They hero Mandela today like they never zeroed him as a terrorist. Do you think they did not know of the heneous crimes against human that where being commited by then the government of RSA. WAKE UP BROTHER!
comrade kundayi (email@example.com) wrote
(I apologise to those that did not want this mail)
Surely the issue is who is actually in the game and what do they contribute? Unfortunately Zimbabwe has many potential contributors who choose instead to be bystanders.
These ideas will remain theories because we are talking about thoughts without the means of implementation. Zanu steals national wealth ZIDERA provides MDC with money both waste these resources on personal gains for party chefs.
We idle by watching a circus of idiot incompetent players in a game that they and we are all equally at fault and ineffective in restoring the nation,
However the politicians and their puppet masters are ALL very effective regarding positioning themselves to SERVE HIDDEN AGENDAS of grabbing Zimbabwes resources and claiming eternal status at Zimbabwes expense.
Some say blame the Zanu only others say blame the West.
Why be partisan when all of them just serve themselves and their hangers on.
Zanu is to blame as they have overturned the idea of government of, for, and by the people reducing the concept to a narrow minded murderous patronage system for exclusive members.
The West is to blame in that the means of countering the Zanu hegemony is a total failure that they continue to push as 'the only game in town'. Who doesnt know that it was Bush policy seeking to create an ORANGE revolution in Zimbabwe? Its all on written record.
WHEREBY economic pressures was to make the people revolt and place their proxy MDC into power. MDC failed to mobilize people properly or ally with civil society choosing rhetoric and Wabenzis instead. Some say falsely WE DONT WANT CIVIL WAR ...this is a statement of personal cowardice when uttered by many and ignorance of such complex matters at the stage of implementation when uttered by others. Civil war already exists.
Zanu has been waging a low intensity civil war for years, those hundreds killed in June were murdered by 'soldiers' and paramilitaries not civilians there has been NOTHING peaceful about the MDC quest for power....it has killed and displaced thousands via means other than bullets it was premised upon national destruction and making the peoople suffer .....so they overthrew Zanu it backfired because it was poorly organized and people in their millions chose flight out of the country to redress the economic pressure instead of fight...There GNU isnt failing it has failed...It was justified by MDC as 1) to save lives, when there so called 'non-violent' regime change was based upon revolt due to suffering...2) it was to change things from within Zanu currently is dismantling MDC and MDC can only counter beyond crying for Zuma or singing praise for Mugabe or rhetoric that 'change is inevitable'.
Experience not withstanding who doesnt know that Zanu is propped up by military force and only an organised counter force 'civil action' or other will bring them to the table in any sincere way?.
ALL Western nations and Eastern nations are based upon important nation saving conflicts civil strife or military action no one accuses the people that opposed Hitler of being worse than the tyranny they ended. No one states those that defeated POL POT or who overthrew the dictator of Romania of being fake merely because they chose to bring change through confronting the tyrants. Only in Africa do we extend the lives of our many tyrants with fake passivity because we ignore the contributions of those who fought for causes with genuine ideals and forget that foreign powers impose their proxies to divert our struggles towards their interests.
The point at issue is many unsung freedom fighters were killed for an ideal stolen by Zanu thieves, many Zimbabweans have been murdered and have suffered following an proxy MDC freedom is coming with no plans bandwagon that is just using them to fulfil outside foreign agendas. The wholle rotten mess needs to be re-evaluated so the country is freed and governed by those wishing to serve Zimbabwe not by fake liberators or fake democrats.
Muzi Ncube (firstname.lastname@example.org) wrote:
Golden! Tswangirai is the best thing that has happened for Zimbabwe. Even when we fought against Ian Smiths Regime which by the way was a better oppressive govt than our current Mugabe govt. We did not topple Smith by ourselves, we had the Int'l community help us out either by training soldiers or giving us refuge etc etc. So for you to come out and criticise Tswangirai for invoking the Int'l community to help with the Zim situation is VERY IMMATURE. Mugabe needs more than Tswangirai to be toppled out of power for reasons we've all seen in his 29 yrs in power. You tell us if u think it makes sense for Mugabe to Preside for 29 yrs straight.
Zobha Da Best
USA Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
From Muzu Ncube (email@example.com)
Golden! During the racist Smith regime we did not go to neighboring countries to buy groceries and basic commodities ok. Yo Mugabe has defeated what he fought Ian Smith for in EVERY WAY and worse enough he's Black African. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
Bongani Masuku (firstname.lastname@example.org) says:
I do not know how I got to this list. Anyway, now that am here and happened to have eye contact with the issues herein, I am just checking my understanding of issues.
I hope from these discussions, am not getting the impression that colonialism never happened and it has no role in the present global economic inequalities. I hope am not also getting the impression that the ruthless plunder of Africa by the mighty west is not linked to the ruthless elites who are looting our economies in full collaboration with their western masters and patrons. In other words, I hope my understanding of the character of imperialism as a global accumulation system which relies on the raw material, cheap labour and unfair access to markets of poor countries for its advantaged position in the global chain of capital accumulation, wherein a few elites 9corrupt and despotic in poor countries) benefit from this exploitative chain, thus acting together with and in the interests of their masters against the poor and suffering masses. They also spread the illusion that with more markets, more integration into the unequal global economy controlled by a few monopolies and with more net transfer of raw material to the north, poor countries will one day be some America of some sort, with skyrocketing buildings and highways.
In conclusion, am I generalising when I say that it is a fact that both imperialism and corrupt elites are responsible for Africa’s position while the masses are the worst victims of this ruthless collaboration. Poor me, please correct me dear comrades before I wrong any further. In this sense, am an apologist of neither!
Just checking thy view!
George Ayittey (email@example.com)
What did you say when the Queen of England made Mugabe an honorary knight in 1994?What did you say when the World Bank declared Zimbabwe as an “economic success story” in 1994?
Did you reject the BILLIONS in World Bank loans and Western aid that were pouring into Zimbabwe in the early 1990s?Now suddenly the West is to blame for Zimbabwe’s problems?
You are acting like a toddler, who must be given a candy after cleaning up his room. But when he messes up his room and the candy is withdrawn, he throws a temper tantrum. Asked why his room is a mess, he replies, “Because I got no candy.”
“Toddler” because his focus is on the candy. He has not grown up and developed sufficient intelligence, mental capacity or maturity to focus on the STATE of his room.
Please focus on the STATE of Zimbabwe, not whether or not you must have candy from the East, West or Jupiter. If you don’t see the appalling state the country is in and you must instead rail against the West for not giving you a candy, then I am afraid, you are part of the problem.
kuthula matshazi (firstname.lastname@example.org) wrote:
Thanks Ben. That's what I suspected you would say...the neo-classical economics kind of solution that has undermined Mozambique, SA, Tanzania, Malawi, Zambia, the list is endless. Your analysis falls short of political elements. Second, you assume that private investment in Zimbabwe can absorb the 60% people not currently employed (being conservative). No. There has never been private sector investment in Africa that has managed to do that. SA is retrenching. All other countries are retrenching in order to maximize on labour and production process "efficiencies". We must not confuse rise in GDP growth with (which is just that ...an increase in output) with people benefitting.
Even if people are absorbed, say the 60% and we have full employment, what kind of sustainable development can we maintain with low wages? For instance, people say the situation in Zimbabwe has improved now, but teachers get US$170 which is about a quarter of the monthly basic cost of living. As productivity costs rise and wages remain stagnant or even drag behind the cost of living, people are going to be poorer and government will have to look after the working people. Foreign investors bring means to produce for their external markets and exploit low wages, lax environmental regulations (read Larry Summers's shocking waste dumping thesis pronounced as comparative advantage http://www.counterpunch.org/summers.html
kuthula matshazi (email@example.com) wrote:
Bongani, yes there is absolute denial - silent denial - of the colonial and imperialism legacies. You rightly outline that the imperialist and corrupt local elites connive to make Africa poor (and other developing countries). These relationships are rationalised by men in suits and usually very well educated. They cheat ordinary people through high sounding ideas in order to perpetuate their source of living!
President Mbeki said they turn normalcy upside down!
Best, Kuthula Matshazi
Visit my Blog at http://kuthula.blogspot.com